Evidence that HBV is real

General Discussion
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Maybe I will try to find the truth about the real existence of this virus! I still belive that it is a medical fraud perpetuated in these 50 years. Time as the doctors do not prove the existence o the virus directly in the blood of the patient, how can I belive only in some invented analysis indirectly?

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ok. Can I ask you something? And this is an honest question. What’s your theory on the real existence of the virus?
What do you mean by medical fraud? The virus does not exist?

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Yes I do have! Ask your doctor to isolate the virus from your blood or liver! If you will be refused by telling you various arguments, maybe he hide the truth, not because it is too dificult or expensive! But because maybe the virus even don’t exist! what did Blumberg descovered? Indeed particules ? Did he performed Koch’s postulates? If the virus exist should not be so ‘complicated’ as dr Thomas said, because we have TEM and maybe it is not so complicated…anyway, in time I will see

24

oook. So the virus does not exist. And what about us chronic carrierers? Doctors just lie to us? Why? What for?

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25

Hi Daniel,

First, I wanted to apologize for my earlier post. Thomas’ dedication and efforts to reach out to all of us around the world has made life changing impacts for many of us, so my rigorous defense of him was justified but making things personal was not. I should not have come back at you with any personal attack and I have edited my post in order to comply with community guidelines.

That being said, I am confused as to what your stance or position actually is. Just like Drew, I am asking this in earnest because I think that it affects this entire community. At first, I thought you were saying that you didn’t believe in the hepatitis B virus and I was surprised because I didn’t even know that this was in contention in today’s day and age. But then, I believe you stated that you had chronic HBV in one of your posts; so that confused me. Why would you state that if you don’t believe in it? Is it that you were diagnosed with it and don’t believe that it’s real? But then, after you and Thomas posted a few more times, I thought that your point was that hepatitis B is not a virus but attained environmentally through chemicals, toxins, etc. But now you have answered Drew stating that you believe that the virus is made up by the medical community? Could you please restate your exact stance or point of view, so that the rest of us can understand exactly what your assertion is?

Please keep in mind that if you are stating that HBV is not real at all, then you are going to have the community questioning what this disease is that 100’s of millions of people have and what we are all suffering from. Are you asserting that there is a global conspiracy to diagnose all of us with a disease that does not exist? How about the 100’s of millions of people that have died of this disease, what did they really die of?

Why do we physically suffer from a virus that is not real? For example, I just had esophageal varices banding surgery a little over a week ago. I can see in pictures taken by the endoscopy that it is real. I am told that those varices are caused by the portal hypertension that is caused by the cirrhosis that is caused by the hepatitis B that I was born with. I fluctuate between stage 2 and 3 cirrhosis caused by HBV. I also have many other medical conditions due to cirrhosis that supposedly manifested from HBV that I was born with. So that wouldn’t even be environmental causes. That would have been passed through blood while in the womb.

Again, I and I am sure many of us are curious what your exact assertion is, as it affects all that we understand and believe that we and our loved ones are going through and suffering and dealing with in life when it comes to this disease.

Thank You,

Paul

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Hello everybody of here! I repeat, in 2017 after an attempt to donate blood, the doctors said to me, you are chronic B virus hepatitis, after they analysis which we all know. At that time I was devastated but I go on and tooked the oral pills, baraclude and till 1 year ago, entecavir 0,5 mg. Trying to find more about the viruses, in timp, I was starting to question it! Why? Because when I demanded to the doctors to purifying, isolate and show me the virus to electron microscope, they chategorically refused to me this, saying, as dr Thomas said to me, that it is not useful for diagnosing, and because it is so expansiv, take a lot o effort, etc! What??? Peoples, we are in 2021, we are able to see atom of some Amstrong dimensions …why we can not see a virus of 32 nm??? My advice is that we all shoul demand that the medical prove the virus existence in each of us, not only throigh some indirectely as analysis, which were invented! In example the HIV virus, there are a lot of virologist who stated that never was isolated directely from the blood of infected patient! I am not specialist, but there are a lot of courios and bizar uncertainty about! Personally I will fight we Romanian medical authorities in this sens! I do not have nothing to lose! Peoples, when we get bones fractura what they do to be convinced about? Radiography or RMN, correct? So in all illness if there is an agent we must see it, not only indirectely, but more directely! Please, see what it is hapen with covid19 pandemy, no one realy isolate the virus, but our right are brocken! It is our right to question sometimes the doctors, because there is also a lot of LIE!

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For example Etienne de Harven, who was doctor in electron microscopy, said that HIV virus was never isolated from patients blood, but only in cells cultures…also said dr Stefan Lanka, David Rasnick, etc…everyone, do your own research! Now we have a dogma of infection with some ‘viruses’ which are not in life or dead entity… Conclusion: if the virus B exist, than they must show us in our fresh blood, not only in some proteins reactions or PCR test, which Kary Mullis himself said it is not for showing ‘multiplication viruses’. You do not see that all these are kept away from our eyes? We do not have acces, even dr Thomas, which I belive he an honest man, but maybe he also don t have enough acces of the real scientific truth!

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28

Hello Daniel!
So it’s fake. But why? What’s the endgame.
I understand why you are frustrated. Feel free to search for the truth. I know I am getting repetitive but in the meantime please take the needed measures to protect those around you.

Best,
Drew

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29

Totally agree with you Pually HBV. I have a lot of respect for Mr. Thomas salute him for his dedicated work for HBV .GOD blessed him always.

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30

Why don’t you find your own place to get tested. I don’t know why you are depending on someone else on something you feel so strongly about??

I don’t know how people do it in Romania, but here in the US, people are suppose to take control of your own situation.

At the moment you got diagnosed, we’re your levels high that it required you to on medication? Did you go from discovery to treatment by your doctor.

I get you are frustrated and angry with hepatitis b. Nothing good can come out from hepatitis b. Maybe the trade off is you take better care of yourself bc you know you have hepatitis b for dying early of horrible liver cancer ( which ain’t fair at all).

Get a grasp of your own situation and do something about. Find a lab and get the test you want done. But I get The Whole conspiracy thing. For the medical field, there is more profit in in treatment than cure. But you also have to remember, not everything is curable, even with all the technology

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Dear all,

I am heartened to see that this discussion is staying relatively civil and that you are all showing each other support and understanding. We have all experienced the impacts of Hepatitis B and we are all trying to continue on our journey as best we can, despite any differences we may have.

I did want to address some particular points from @DDaniel1860216105021 that concerned me directly:

I appreciate your belief in me as an honest man, Daniel. But I must say that in my almost 20 years of scientific training and research, I feel like I have had access to all the scientific evidence that my mind could absorb.

While there are issues (as with all fields) that some people lie or make up data, every time I start a new project based on anyone else’s results I have been trained to run controls to make sure that those results are right. This is a very common way that scientific research is carried out and any fraudulent claims will generally be found out this way eventually. The fact that thousands of HBV scientists have not found a problem with the fundamental issues of virus biology means I have very strong confidence in our model of understanding the disease.

Indeed I have done my own research in Hep B, while these researchers have not. I would be wary about any claims they have about this field if they haven’t done any specific research into it.

All of those previous studies I have mentioned have shown that HBV can be isolated from the blood and visualised by Electron microscopy.

I have not said that we cannot isolate the virus from your blood and image it. It is simply that it costs a lot of time and effort. If you are willing to part with the money and amount of blood required, I am sure you can find a group to do it for you.

Perhaps you could consider this. The indirect markers for Hep B have been used in all of the clinical trials showing that there’s a high risk of liver disease and liver cancer, and of the protective effects of vaccines and antiviral therapy. In that sense, it doesn’t matter than much what the actual agent causing it is, just that these indirect markers are associated with danger that can be averted with clinical care, monitoring and treatment.

As such, I would support @Drew_rous’s suggestion that you take the measures needed to protect yourself and those around you.

Yours sincerely,
Thomas

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32

Thank you dr Thomas. With the God help I will find the truth! Best regard to you all and forgive me if I upset you. Daniel

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Anyway, dr Thomas I have a last question: DID YOU EVER PURIFIED, ISOLATED AND SEEN ON TEM THE VIRUS B, DIRECTLY FROM FRESH BLOOD OF AN INFECTED PATIENT? BUT NOT FROM CELLS CULTURES? ISOLATION USING DENSITY GRADIENT CENTRIFUGATION METHOD? Dr Thomas search on google for Etienne de Harven was an important belgian pathologist and microscopist! He fight with Perth Group from Australia against the HIV/AIDS fraud! Anyway the TRUTH it is not supported by majority, because Himself Jesus Christ=THE TRUTH was alone/one in this world perverted by a lot of LIE! Yes, it is true that the liver and our body in general is afected by all kind of poisons, and the medicine of this century put a lot of false causes on this real causes! We need to rethinking the viral illnesses! We need to demand the doctor to prove in a real and transparent manner such kind of illnesses! We sould not be more satisfied only with some information on a piece o paper, but real scientifically proof!

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Hi again,
First of all, I understand that you don’t believe HBV exist but you recognize that the liver might have problems. Therefore I would urge you to follow the doctor’s advice. For your own sake, please take the prescribed medication. It saves lives. Whatever you might want to call it, the treatment helps as it is indicated by the blood tests. Again, this goes whether you want to call it HBV or not.

On a more personal note. As I understand we are both Christians. I want to stress/remind you that Christianity and medicine are not opposite. Jesus is the truth. No doubt about that. But I want to also remind you of Saint Luke of Simferopol. He was not only a bishop and a saint but also an outstanding surgeon following and expanding the knowledge of his period (e.g. as he was the first who described the anaesthesia for the trigeminal nerve by the use of ethanol into the branches of this nerve (orbital, maxillary and mandibular) and into gassers node. ). He was in every way part of the majority that promoted medicine at the time helping many many people.

Take care,
Drew

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35

Yes, the scientific proof is here:

Yes, I have seen what has been said. Their scientific claims have been addressed and dismissed during that court case in Australia. They do not seem to understand many scientific concepts and they do not appear to have published any scientific research in the field of HIV. Why do you trust these people more than the hundreds of thousands of other scientists that show that HIV is a virus?

But, in the end, this has nothing to do with Hepatitis B because they do not mention it at all. To my knowledge, there is no reputable scientist that denies that Hepatitis B is caused by a virus.

Thomas

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Thank you doctor!I will read the article! Let me tell you, that in this life when you are in monority and you try to say the truth you will be allways marinalized, as Peter Deusberg was. I think Peter Deusberg published a lot! Anyway we are here for Hep B, sorry I opened an other disscution!

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Hello dr Thomas, I’ve red what you sent to me. First of all in none of the articles sent to me, you are not co-author, so none of them are not your own lab research, but it ok, they are useful. Now, let me tell you what I concluded: 1. None of these article proves a real purification and isolation of the B virus pure particles, done directly from the blood infected, but were used celles cultures! All is about antigens HBsAg or HBcAg isolation, which are not the B virus particle at all! 2. All EM pictures are so so unclear ones! And it was useful to be shown as well pictures with uninfected blood, to have a clear compareson in the mirror! Yes, in one article it is said that Dane particles were ‘isolated’ from 5 liters of serum blood, but also that was not enough acid nucleic and that so was used “a circular double-stranded DNA molecule extruding directly from the core of Dane particles was clearly demonstrated by elelctron microscopic observations. The cores of Dane particles (hepatitis B core antigen; HBcAg) were prepared by treating the Dane particle preparation with mercaptoethanol and Nonidet P-40”…but what procedure is that ‘extruding directly from the core of Dane’??? 3. All articles are old! 1975-1985…6! 4. Where are your article in with youself studied and succeded the purification, isolation and you took clear pictures of the B virus??? 5. Where are the Koch’ s postulate proof? 6. Where are the evidences that patients who did not took antiviral medication and with a healty life, they anyway died of liver cirrosis or carcinoma caused by the virus itself? Were there are these cases monitoring? Thanks, best regard, Daniel

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Dear @DDaniel1860216105021,

  1. That is incorrect, all of them contain electron micrographs or analysis of serum-derived virus particles. Takahashi et al. Figure 4; Woolf et al. results part 1; Yamada et al. Figure 3a (virus in liver); De Vos et al, Figure 8 (virus in liver).
  2. I’m not sure what the issue is you want comment on. These are all clear enough to show that virus is present to those who can interpret EM pictures. DNA was not enough to observe because this was before PCR was invented so you needed a lot more to see it. They just wanted to observe the DNA that was in the virus so they broke it a little with detergents - a scientific question, not specifically addressing that virus is the cause.
  3. Yes, these studies were done long ago… Science moves on once something has been well established, there is no need to show the same thing again and again. But there are many others that have isolated and visualised HBV from the serum more recently if you want more references:
  1. I don’t do this work, it is a very specialist procedure that takes a lot of skill and money. I am not interested in learning this technique for 5 years to do a single thing that was done 50 years ago. I leave that to my colleagues and concentrate on research that I can do to directly improve patient health.
  2. Fulfillment of Koch’s postulates has been done over many studies, but this is a key study - https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/84/13/4641.full.pdf. Here they isolated virus DNA from a patient, expressed it in a cell and produced virus from it. This virus was injected into chimpanzees which showed the same virus markers and liver injury. Other studies are available to support this, which you should be able to find with a pubmed search.
  3. Many studies show this. The biggest is with Lamivudine - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa033364. These patients were monitored over years. Entecavir/bariclude also shows good effect - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/liv.13253. Again, a quick pubmed search will produce many studies to address all of your concerns.

Thomas

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Hello doctor, ok. Thank you very much. One thing more: what could we observ if it would taken two bood samples, one from an infected person with B virus, and an onther from an uninfected one, and
would be place them directly on TEM? I saw on youtube a guy who took a little blood somple and put it on electron microscop, directly and he was able to the the red blood cells in example! Why not in this manner it is not done with virus particles? I do not see any logic…so ever, Best regards, Daniel

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40

Purification and isolation of virus is much much harder than looking at blood cells. It is much more complicated than you have suggested here. Also, you can only practically do very few EM samples at a time.

So you can see that the researchers in all of the later studies concentrate the virus and find the gradient fraction with the highest levels of virus markers first (e.g. HBcAg and HBsAg). They then carry out EM on only those fractions. In some cases, they have done immunogold labelling and directly shown that HBcAg and HBsAg are part of the virus that they visualise. When you look at the different fractions from the same patient, you will not see the virus.

In uninfected patients, there is no HBcAg and HBsAg to guide them and they certainly would not see anything.

Thomas