Di you not see what happens with this crazy pandemic covid19 crisis??? All our rights are broken because of a medical BIG fraud!!!
I’m happy to discuss further studies in good faith if that’s what you would like, but I would like to encourage you to please remain civil. I have not treated you with any disrespect and I request that you do the same for everyone in this community.
Regarding purification and visualisation of HBV from blood, this has been done several times in several separate groups (in addition to the Dane paper I mention above) and also looking at the liver of infected patients:
- Morphological Irregularities in Dane Particle Cores | Microbiology Society
My colleagues that I worked with in Germany have been involved in electron microscopy work of HBV patients.
Koch’s postulates for HBV have been addressed through the Willowbrook studies and by chimpanzee studies in the 80s and 90s.
The comments from Kary Mullis are taken out of context: he appears to have been talking about quantifying infectious virus level. Which is true, so we use quantitative PCR, a variant of the technique Kary invented to look at the levels of HBV DNA. We also use other techniques to determine infectiousness (including some animal studies).
I’ve suspended you for 2 hours as you have been a bit aggressive with your words, but I am happy to talk in good faith after that time if we can have a civil conversation.
Maybe there is something being lost in translation? Regardless, of what anyone’s beliefs or hypotheses are, no one should be so disrespectful. Many of us in this forum may be ‘regular’, but none of us have shown such a display of arrogance and disregard on here. Please read more of these forums before leveling such accusations.
Thomas is a leading scientist in the field and is a leader in so many ways that I can’t even count them on one hand. What I do know is that he started this community out of heartfelt care and concern for this community around the WORLD. He has chronic HBV himself and it hurts all of us when he is attacked in this manner. Most of us ‘regular’ people probably don’t know what TEM and SEM and EM are, but there is a civil manner to approach questions and even disagreements. It’s ok to disagree or to share opinions but it’s not ok to come on this forum and blast this type of accusation and belittle someone’s profession and validity. This does not only demean Thomas, but all the other professionals that donate their time in this community, the predecessors from the previous community that helped create and evolve the public availability for HBV support, AND all of us ‘regular’ people that suffer from HBV.
This community is here to answer questions but most importantly, to support each other. We can disagree on here but NO ONE has the right to speak to anyone in this manner.
Please understand all the support this community provides and the time, effort and passion Thomas puts into this community with no compensation but knowing that he is helping countless people around the world.
Note: I have edited this post in order to uphold community guidelines.
I feel so badly that you have been attacked like this. I am so sorry that someone with such dedication and good heart would have such words leveled at them. My heart is really hurting for you right now. I know that you are taking it on the chin but I have been a leader in a few ways in my life and I know it can really hurt when someone attacks our passion and especially our integrity.
I understand that you want to allow for freedom of speech and discussion even when it’s disagreement, but I wish you had a shield like some form of administrative body that would take care of this type of situation so you could focus solely on all the good that you do. Yet, we have never had anything remotely like this on here before. Once in a great while we might have someone who is a bit demanding but nothing a fraction of 1x10 E6 of this (I think I am learning something but I couldn’t convert this to LOG.)
Not only are you respected and appreciated but you are NEEDED by all of us.
With all DUE respect and concern,
Hola Thomas , Pablo todos los del grupo que aportan información vivencias gracias a este foro que muchos que entramos con miedos vamos poco a poco sintiendo más confianza u fortaleza se que todos te estimamos Thomas por siempre tu gran labor como profesional científico y humano se nota que eres un gran ser humano como muchos amigos amigas del foro tambien decir que no estoy deacuerdo con la persona que se expresó mal atacandote eres increíble Thomas un gran ser humano y todos los del grupo matengamosno unidos saludos y bendiciones a todos
I appreciate the concern and support, but I would like to remind everyone of the forum rules regarding content they find offensive - I don’t like something that was posted: what do I do? (Conflict resolution guidelines). Importantly, all parties should please try to keep discussions civil and leave personal attacks out of it.
@DDaniel1860216105021, I understand that you may be feeling frustrated and stressed by your diagnosis. Many people on this forum (myself included) have been diagnosed with Hepatitis B also and have been in similar situations of being upset. We extend you a welcome to join our community, so that we can all support each other through this tough period.
It is true that governments and societies have not responded ideally to hepatitis B. There is lack of funding, there is poor support and low access to health care for people with hepatitis B in many parts of the world, and the progress to improve these things has been slow. But this does not mean that the position of any opposing side is correct.
Some further comments on the points you raise, for the last >50 years there has been >99% consensus among virologists that Hepatitis B being caused by a virus. As cited above, there have been detailed studies looking at all aspects of this, including isolation and visualisation of the virus from the blood of hepatitis B patients.
Scientists have used this knowledge to develop antiviral therapies and vaccines that have improved the lives of millions of people around the world (we have recently discussed these advances here - Viral Hepatitis: improving lives through medical research - an interactive panel discussion (29th July, free registration)). The science has worked in real life and millions have benefited. It is telling that all of the health workers are vaccinated against Hepatitis B and the ones that are HBV-positive themselves take the recommended medications.
If you are suggesting that a fundamental point on which more than 50 years of research and clinical improvements in patients is wrong, then the responsibility is on you to provide the evidence of that argument as to why all of the results in those 50 years are incorrect. As you are a learned individual with scientific knowledge, I hope you agree that this is the appropriate way to proceed.
I am happy to continue discussions, if you will raise your issues in a civil manner and you approach the exchange as an honest truth-finding exercise rather than coming already with your mind made up.
Hello doctor, first, please forgive me for my attitude! Ok, I understood you also hepatitis B, but anyway, I ask you, why doctor don’t use also isolation the virus from infected patient, directly from the blood? You know that all tests antigens and PCR for load viremia are only indirectly analysis? So, please, I ask you again, did you personally saw on TEM the virus paricles full shaped, which are in your blood or liver? Do you know Dr Stefan Lanka from Germany? He claims that the viruses are lies! He prove for example the measles it is not caused by a virus, but chemicals toxicity. He prove with experimental constrol. I red the scientific article and in all I saw that ‘the virus’ was izolated ONLY in cells cultures, why only in this manner? it is so strange this thing! We have TEM, I think if we would put a drop of fresh blood we could see for real if there are or no the virus particles in their real form. So, I am asking you again, did you done in this way for yousef, the virus B proof? Or only with antigens, PCR ADN viral load and other investigation? Please, we all shoul consider this point of view! The cells cultures are only debris, so the cells are killed or stresed with detergente and other things. In culture is not aa in the natural medium, the blood! So? Thank you and again, forgive me! I belive that a lot of liver problems are caused by toxicity from food, or drog abuse, alcohol, oxidative stres, poverty, eyc, do you not belive that? In this sens, identically is the HIV infection, in which there are a lot of scientific how claims the virus wasn’t never isolated! Luc Montagnier admitted, but Peter Deusberg, David Rasnick, Etienne de Harven (electron microscopy especialist!), Dr Stefan Lanka and Perth Group from Australia…
It is not true that isolation has only been done in cell culture, as mentioned in the citations above. It is also not true that virus isolates from cell culture are only debris. The viruses produced and isolated from cell culture have been shown to be infectious in many studies on chimpanzees.
The isolation and visualization of hepatitis B is a very specialised technique, as I know first-hand. It is not as simple as putting blood on an EM grid and visualising it, because you will just end up seeing a lot of other blood-borne lipids and proteins instead. Virus preparation first requires purification (generally using isopycnic ultracentrifugation to separate components based on density and other methods such as affinity chromatography). The preparation for EM also requires the use of very toxic chemicals, specialised machinery, very highly skilled technical staff, and a lot of time (months to years). Because of this it would be very expensive to test each person for hepatitis B (more than 10,000 euro per test) and would take a long time to do. We cannot practically do this for everyone.
I have seen preparations of HBV for EM in my previous group, yes. I have not had it done for my own blood because there are strong restrictions on how we spend money in the lab (as these are funded using tax-payer money). Also it would not provide any additional benefit given the strong scientific evidence that these indirect markers are only present when there’s active virus replication.
You are right that the viral antigens, antibodies and HBV DNA are indirect measures of the virus, but are very well-characterized and can be done relatively quickly and cheaply. Also, we can be more certain about them if they all agree with one another. For example, almost all HBsAg-positive people are also HBcAb-positive, and the opposite is true for negative patients. By the same token, almost all HBV DNA positive people are HBsAg-positive. When tests do not agree, we repeat them and these generally are false-positives or false-negatives. In the cases where that’s not true, we send in scientists to try to find out what is happening.
We also know that these indirect markers correlate very closely with infectivity. Mothers who have high viral loads (measured by PCR) are more likely to pass it on to their children if they are unvaccinated. This is a very strong indication that PCR measures infectivity. These real-life infections still occur today, ~1M new cases of HBV occur per year in countries where vaccination rates are low.
Also, many studies have shown that vaccination against the virus stops liver cancer - these have been shown in controlled studies in multiple countries (most famously in Taiwan and Alaska). Liver cancer rates went down dramatically after vaccination with everything else being controlled for. This can only happen if Hepatitis B is caused by a virus.
Transmission to children can also be prevented if mothers are given antivirals prior to birth. These nucleoside analogues suppress the virus by blocking its replication function. Again, these results can only be possible if Hepatitis B is a virus.
The markers also correlate strongly with disease. If you are HBsAg-positive, you are about 100 times more likely to get liver cancer. Antivirals have been shown to decrease the risk.
I agree that there are many other liver diseases caused by the factors you suggest. Our research centre (Storr Liver Group, Westmead Institute for Medical Science) looks at all of these. But Hepatitis B remains one of the major causes of liver disease in the world.
Regarding the people you mention, I am aware of their claims, but I don’t think any of them have ever said that Hepatitis B doesn’t exist. But even if they did, you need to provide some evidence why the claims of these people should be trusted over the hundreds of thousands of other scientists that agree that Hepatitis B is a virus.
Ok, thank you very much!
You don’t have to believe that HBV is real. In fact, you can just stop taking medications and do whatever you want. But if you die, it’s not our fault.
who are you to tell me I will die? how can you prove that I will die because of the “virus B”?
Please feel free to believe anything you want. Make sure though to monitor your health and take the needed measures to protect those around you.
Maybe I will try to find the truth about the real existence of this virus! I still belive that it is a medical fraud perpetuated in these 50 years. Time as the doctors do not prove the existence o the virus directly in the blood of the patient, how can I belive only in some invented analysis indirectly?
ok. Can I ask you something? And this is an honest question. What’s your theory on the real existence of the virus?
What do you mean by medical fraud? The virus does not exist?
Yes I do have! Ask your doctor to isolate the virus from your blood or liver! If you will be refused by telling you various arguments, maybe he hide the truth, not because it is too dificult or expensive! But because maybe the virus even don’t exist! what did Blumberg descovered? Indeed particules ? Did he performed Koch’s postulates? If the virus exist should not be so ‘complicated’ as dr Thomas said, because we have TEM and maybe it is not so complicated…anyway, in time I will see
oook. So the virus does not exist. And what about us chronic carrierers? Doctors just lie to us? Why? What for?
First, I wanted to apologize for my earlier post. Thomas’ dedication and efforts to reach out to all of us around the world has made life changing impacts for many of us, so my rigorous defense of him was justified but making things personal was not. I should not have come back at you with any personal attack and I have edited my post in order to comply with community guidelines.
That being said, I am confused as to what your stance or position actually is. Just like Drew, I am asking this in earnest because I think that it affects this entire community. At first, I thought you were saying that you didn’t believe in the hepatitis B virus and I was surprised because I didn’t even know that this was in contention in today’s day and age. But then, I believe you stated that you had chronic HBV in one of your posts; so that confused me. Why would you state that if you don’t believe in it? Is it that you were diagnosed with it and don’t believe that it’s real? But then, after you and Thomas posted a few more times, I thought that your point was that hepatitis B is not a virus but attained environmentally through chemicals, toxins, etc. But now you have answered Drew stating that you believe that the virus is made up by the medical community? Could you please restate your exact stance or point of view, so that the rest of us can understand exactly what your assertion is?
Please keep in mind that if you are stating that HBV is not real at all, then you are going to have the community questioning what this disease is that 100’s of millions of people have and what we are all suffering from. Are you asserting that there is a global conspiracy to diagnose all of us with a disease that does not exist? How about the 100’s of millions of people that have died of this disease, what did they really die of?
Why do we physically suffer from a virus that is not real? For example, I just had esophageal varices banding surgery a little over a week ago. I can see in pictures taken by the endoscopy that it is real. I am told that those varices are caused by the portal hypertension that is caused by the cirrhosis that is caused by the hepatitis B that I was born with. I fluctuate between stage 2 and 3 cirrhosis caused by HBV. I also have many other medical conditions due to cirrhosis that supposedly manifested from HBV that I was born with. So that wouldn’t even be environmental causes. That would have been passed through blood while in the womb.
Again, I and I am sure many of us are curious what your exact assertion is, as it affects all that we understand and believe that we and our loved ones are going through and suffering and dealing with in life when it comes to this disease.
Hello everybody of here! I repeat, in 2017 after an attempt to donate blood, the doctors said to me, you are chronic B virus hepatitis, after they analysis which we all know. At that time I was devastated but I go on and tooked the oral pills, baraclude and till 1 year ago, entecavir 0,5 mg. Trying to find more about the viruses, in timp, I was starting to question it! Why? Because when I demanded to the doctors to purifying, isolate and show me the virus to electron microscope, they chategorically refused to me this, saying, as dr Thomas said to me, that it is not useful for diagnosing, and because it is so expansiv, take a lot o effort, etc! What??? Peoples, we are in 2021, we are able to see atom of some Amstrong dimensions …why we can not see a virus of 32 nm??? My advice is that we all shoul demand that the medical prove the virus existence in each of us, not only throigh some indirectely as analysis, which were invented! In example the HIV virus, there are a lot of virologist who stated that never was isolated directely from the blood of infected patient! I am not specialist, but there are a lot of courios and bizar uncertainty about! Personally I will fight we Romanian medical authorities in this sens! I do not have nothing to lose! Peoples, when we get bones fractura what they do to be convinced about? Radiography or RMN, correct? So in all illness if there is an agent we must see it, not only indirectely, but more directely! Please, see what it is hapen with covid19 pandemy, no one realy isolate the virus, but our right are brocken! It is our right to question sometimes the doctors, because there is also a lot of LIE!
For example Etienne de Harven, who was doctor in electron microscopy, said that HIV virus was never isolated from patients blood, but only in cells cultures…also said dr Stefan Lanka, David Rasnick, etc…everyone, do your own research! Now we have a dogma of infection with some ‘viruses’ which are not in life or dead entity… Conclusion: if the virus B exist, than they must show us in our fresh blood, not only in some proteins reactions or PCR test, which Kary Mullis himself said it is not for showing ‘multiplication viruses’. You do not see that all these are kept away from our eyes? We do not have acces, even dr Thomas, which I belive he an honest man, but maybe he also don t have enough acces of the real scientific truth!
So it’s fake. But why? What’s the endgame.
I understand why you are frustrated. Feel free to search for the truth. I know I am getting repetitive but in the meantime please take the needed measures to protect those around you.